Sounds for Deep Work – Dan Clark & Phil Amalong

“So, what happens is because we are pre combining and creating amplitude modulations directly in our music, it actually skips your brainstem and goes right to your prefrontal cortex, where there is the greatest resolution, and the greatest amount of neurons and populations and all that. And we’re able to basically switch your state from not focused to focused in five minutes.” 

– Dan Clark, CEO Brain.fm

Dan Clark is CEO of Brain.FM, which creates music for the brain, to help you unlock your best self, by focusing, relaxing and sleeping better. Phil Amalong is the VP Marketing of Freedom, and audio producer and music composer for Freedom Matters. They both love music, and have lived and breathed how music can change the way we function and work.

In this two part episode, we speak firstly with Phil. We talk about how he builds the soundtracks for our podcast, about his career history as a musician and entrepreneur, and why focus sounds have become an important part of the Freedom product.

Focus sounds exist in Freedom, in part due to Brain.fm. Brain.fm’s CEO, Dan, explains the science behind how focus sounds work to align the vibrations in our brain so that we can think more clearly and stay focused for longer. Dan has spent years hacking his life to improve his focus, and believes there is still so much to learn when it comes to sound.

We discuss:

• How music can be an important tool for focusing
• How Brain.fm works to create various mental states through music
• The future of music in the landscape of productivity and well-being

Host and Producer: Georgie Powell Sentient Digital

Music and audio production: Toccare Philip Amalong

Transcript

Dan: So, when we’re putting a certain kind of pattern in your ear, that pattern turns into an electrical pattern in your brain. And what entrainment is, is the ability for us to put a pattern in your brain and your brain to keep that pattern going if you stop the stimulus. So, what’s happening is your brain starts basically pre-empting, or thinks about what the pattern is next. 

And what happens, our brain reacts to the environment that we’re in. By creating this pattern, we’re able to basically replicate the same pattern as deep focus of someone that’s literally in an fMRI, which is reading blood flow throughout your brain or through an EEG. 

So, we’re basically creating those patterns in the music, which then basically start shifting and normalizing the pattern in your brain. And then that is the pattern that people most effectively focus at, or relax at, or sleep at.

Georgie: Welcome to Freedom Matters, where we explore the intersection of technology, productivity, and digital well-being. I’m your host, Georgie Powell. And each episode, we’ll be talking to experts in productivity and digital wellness. We’ll be sharing their experiences on how to take back control of technology. We hope you leave feeling inspired, so let’s get to it. 

This week, we’re thinking all about the role of music and technology as a tool. We first speak with Phil Amlong, VP of Marketing at Freedom, and also our podcast audio producer. We talk about his life in music and how focus sounds are helping so many Freedom users. Some of the sounds available on Freedom are care of our partnership with Brain FM. 

And we also speak with Dan Clark, Brain FM’s CEO to understand more about how functional music can shape our brains to help us focus. Dan believes that managing distraction is within our grasp, if only we have the right tools. So, Phil.

Phil: Georgie.

Georgie: Welcome to the Freedom Matters podcast. What a pleasure.

Phil: Oh, thank you. Pleasure is all mine. I’ve listened to so many of these and now I’m very nervous to be on the mic.

Georgie: This is your baby as much as it’s mine. It’s been a fun project hasn’t it? 

Phil: It has. Yeah. 

Georgie: Okay. We wanted to talk to you today because you are the music man. You’re the music man for the podcast, but also you are a musician. And this episode is all about music. When you write the music to the podcast episodes, which you do every few weeks, how do you do that? How do you go about that process and how do you think about what music works for each episode?

Phil: It’s fairly intuitive, but it starts with, I’d say two things. The first is the theme of the episode, what the guests’ message and work is thinking about what music lends itself to that and what might support that. And then the guests themselves and the tone and energy of their voice, and how they sound thinking about the music that supports that. 

Each episode is completely different, so I do — I try to make music that is unique to each episode, although there’s probably a signature sound that just because it’s me. And so after I determine those couple of high level things, I build my sound palette. So, I look for the sounds that I’m going to use to support that musical idea. 

And then the music serves to enhance a feeling or an idea. So, I look for transition points sometimes, especially when it’s a big idea. The best way to support it is with silence, no music at all. And yeah, I’ve just — I’ve done this for so many years in scoring for television and film that I have a pretty good sense of those things and where the music needs to go, and how it needs to sound in order to serve the message and play that role.

Georgie: So, tell us more. What has been the story of music in your life?

Phil: Yeah, it’s a long story, so I’ll do my best. And I was thinking about this yesterday. They say that in the womb you can hear music. And before I was born my mom played the piano and she tells me when, before I was born she was playing a lot. 

So, I heard the sound of the piano before I was born, and by the time I could make the keys move I was just at the piano making sounds. And when I was four, my mom started giving me piano lessons. And so it started from there. 

After a few years I went to a, I guess you would say proper piano teacher and things just took off from there. I became the piano geek kid and I went to school for piano. I have multiple degrees in piano performance from the Cincinnati College-Conservatory of Music. And I was on the path to being a classical concert pianist, but I also had other interests that were pulling me in different directions. 

In my senior year as an undergrad I became very interested in recording and recording technology and electronic music, electronic instruments. And I was working with some friends in the labs at the school inventing sounds and coming up with all sorts of compositions. And we had this idea that we could start a business creating music for advertising. 

And we were 20 years old, we were naive and arrogant and thought we were the best thing in the world. And through luck and tons of mistakes and things I cringe at when I think about them now, we actually succeeded. We built a very, very interesting production company. We had advertising clients around the world. 

We built a recording studio, in downtown Cincinnati and we were working with agencies across the US and creating music and sonic identity for brands. We wrote music from McDonald’s and Walmart and we created the Blockbuster video jingle back in 90, and just hundreds and hundreds of productions. 

So, that business ran its course in concurrent with my partners and myself going in our own directions. The advertising business was really changing dramatically as the internet developed. They started working more on solo projects, my own recordings. I started teaching some courses at the local universities in the music departments. 

I eventually ended up getting, not really intending to but getting involved in academia more and more, and I became chair of the music department at a local university. And then one day, I got an email from a man in North Carolina who told me about this amazing tech company that he was starting that was going to change the world of music. 

And like I did with school where I veered off the traditional path of a classical musician and started my own business this was my going rogue on academia. We came to North Carolina, this company was called Zenph. And it was music and it was technology and it was business. It was combining everything I had been doing up to that point. 

And in the course of that, that company, as many venture backed businesses do, it blew up spectacularly. But the outcome of that was that our original investors pulled together a team of co-founders, which included myself and we acquired the assets of that company and launched a new company, which we build a platform for live online music lessons over webcam.

Georgie: Phil’s story goes on. The platform offered four and a half thousand music teachers the opportunity to reach their students. At the same time, the old technology built with Zenph had gained a new lease of life and was being used to recreate performances by musicians who had passed on. In the process, Phil pulled in piano brand Steinway, who went on to acquire Zenph and the online music teaching platform.

Phil: So, what they were able to do was on large screens in the Steinway showroom, they would have film footage of legendary performances of great pianists, Oscar Peterson, Horowitz Rubinstein. And the piano itself, using our technology would be playing in the showroom in perfect synchronization and with every exact nuance, and music detail that was in the film.

Georgie: And so since then, you — since the Steinway venture, you’ve basically been — you’ve been at Freedom, right? That was your next job then.

Phil: Yeah, I worked — Actually, I worked with a music tech company called ReverbNation. I was head of product marketing there. And then worked with a number of other companies as a consultant. And through that network, through that local network, I met Fred. And I loved what he was doing and I love Freedom. And that’s where that started. And that was about 2016.

Georgie: And tell us a little bit more about the role of music at Freedom.

Phil: Music’s very personal. People can listen to all kinds of music while they’re working, but they often find that the music they would listen to for pleasure, enjoyment, or emotional stimulation isn’t conducive to work. So, that brings us to functional music which is created for the purpose of achieving a state of focus through an ambient environment.

Georgie: And so you felt that naturally was a great fit for the Freedom app, did you?

Phil: I did, I did. Because what we saw was the user behavior using Freedom, particularly, to work in sessions and blocks using things like the Pomodoro Technique. It became apparent that we could help support their environment. And again, seeing products like Brain that were a perfect partner and fit for this led us down that path. 

We now have ambient sounds, coffee shops, nature sounds, as well as music, as well as focused music both from Brain, a couple tracks that I wrote, and some other music that was generated by an AI called Neubert. And these are actually our most popular music tracks after Brain. 

We see people talking about Freedom and mentioning the focus sounds as a feature that they think is valuable. It’s an easy to use feature. And our tracks are timed, many of them to exactly 25 minutes to accompany a Pomodoro session. As functional music, they’re created with what we call reduced auditory salience. 

Which means there’s very few elements in the music that capture your attention. It’s intentionally created that way. And then the raw materials of music, melody, harmony, rhythm, are very controlled and used in a very specific way to help create that ambient environment that supports focus.

Georgie: Amazing. Phil, thank you so much. It’s great. You mentioned Brain FM, because actually the rest of this episode, we’re going to be speaking with the CEO of Brain FM, Dan Clark, to hear a bit more about the science behind how music can actually change the way we think. 

Thank you so much, Phil, for sharing your journey and your story with me about music. We’ve really enjoyed it. It’s wonderful working with you every single week. Thank you for the beautiful scores that you create. And we’ll talk again soon. 

Phil: Thanks, Georgie. Let’s do it. 

Georgie: Dan, welcome to the Freedom Matters podcast. Thank you so much for joining us today.

Dan: My pleasure to be here.

Georgie: Let’s start at the beginning. Let’s not jump ahead. Let’s be good. And let’s start. Can you just tell me, Dan, a bit about yourself and your life, and kind of what got you to this point with Brain FM?

Dan: I’ve always been interested in optimization, you know, like, how can I kick a little bit higher? How can I run faster? How can I think more clearly, more succinctly, more consistently? When I could find this magic zone of you can do anything, it’s like this effortless thing. And nowadays, it’s called flow state. 

So, I figured out I could unlock flow state when I had two cups of coffee, when it was about 11:00 in the morning, and the window was open, and I was a certain temperature, and I was like cool. And I was addicted to finding that. And I basically did nootropics, which are different types of vitamins and things like that. And then I did diet changes and I did keto and bulletproof and all those things. And I kept looking for it. 

But the challenge was that basically your brain and your body normalizes to things. So, you do bulletproof and you feel amazing. But then the gains that I had from being like a 10 out of 10 effectiveness, after a month had go like an eight out of 10, still great, but then had go like a seven, nootropic same thing. And I kept looking and looking while I was trying to figure out what I’m going to do with my life. 

And I came across Brain FM. So, I’m not a founder, I was one of the first users. And I remember putting on my headphones for the first time. I was just doing emails, and I did so much work like that. And I remember taking my headphones out and I was like, whoa, what is this? And I was super skeptical because I tried binaural beats, I tried isochronic tones. I was like, oh, this is just a thing. And I was completely blown away. 

So, I ended up calling the company like 12 times. And I was like, I need to talk to the founders, and they basically told me they’re not interested. And I told them, I’m going to keep calling them until they have one conversation with me. So, I did. And I told them this is what I do. I help companies scale. Here’s my track record. I want to do this for Brain FM. 

I have the skills and I have the desire and they didn’t have the money. So, I said I’ll work for free and I will make the money, I will create the revenue, and then you’ll pay me and that’s what happened. So, I worked for three months for free. I started leading the tech team, I ended up becoming CEO. 

And then about four years into the whole thing I had the opportunity to buy out the company and I liquidated every dollar I have and I went all in on buying Brain FM. But it’s really because I feel so strongly that there’s so much opportunity and finding tools like this to help to eliminate distractions. 

We have evidence that this is a technology that works not only to help people in their daily life, but also in like medical applications, where we just — we’re waking people up from anesthesia faster. We just finished a clinical study on that. We may be able to help people with Alzheimer’s and actually reduce or reverse that. There’s all these really interesting things of the brain that we’re finding out and we’re on the forefront.

Georgie: Dan, so I know that since you’ve been working at Brain FM sound, you’ve done a lot of stuff, understanding the science behind why music can be so powerful in this way. Can you help us understand a bit more about why particular types of music can help people to concentrate? 

Dan: So, basically, music I think of as — there’s two categories where there’s art with a capital A, and that’s based off of expression, and based off of creating an experience. And that’s not what music was created for originally. So, music originally was actually like lullabies. It was for functional purpose. It was to help your kid fall asleep. 

Georgie: Tell stories.

Dan: Yeah, maybe tell stories. Another great functional purpose of music back then was for like war. The original startings of music, a lot of it was for, like a purpose. And then as music became more mainstream over the years, and the development of technology, we really went into the functional purpose of making someone feel an emotion. 

And over the last maybe 30-40 years, there was this idea of creating music to get back to this functional purpose of maybe helping you do X. There’s actually an approach called Muzak, which came out, and it was this idea that you’re in factories and help people be more efficient, etc. And you’ve probably heard of similar attempts of that of neural beats, or isochronic tones. 

And this idea of how can we listen and basically switch our state into a certain kind of effectiveness that we want for an activity that we’re doing.

Georgie: Operating mode.

Dan: Yeah, exactly, right. And the closest one so far before, what we’re doing is binaural beats. And binaural beats, if you’re not familiar, is basically two hertz in your ears, where one is, let’s say 50 hertz, and the other one’s 45. 

And what happens is they combine in your brain, specifically, your brainstem. And the difference creates something called an amplitude modulation that basically starts in your brainstem, and then cascades through a process of entrainment throughout your brain.

Georgie: And a hertz is what, a unit of vibration?

Dan: So, you have hertz actually two ways. So, you have hertz as in frequency and then you also have Hertz in modulation. So, modulation hertz is actually on and off, it’s how many times something turns on and off in a second, like an amplitude wave. So, if I say 10 hertz, that means something turns on and off 10 times a second. But if I say 40 hertz frequency or tone, that’s a vibration frequency that creates a certain kind of sound. 

So, what happens in binaural beats, it actually uses tones. And in your brainstem it combines to create an amplitude modulation, which is that on and off. And you can think of the result in your brain. What entrainment is, is basically the syncing of functional networks of your brain to all blink at the same time. 

So, imagine Christmas tree lights on your Christmas tree, they’re all blinking all different times. And then there’s this amplitude modulation that basically lines them to start blinking all at the same time.

Georgie: Okay, amazing. So, as I understand this, we’re trying to get all our neurons to line up together and pulse together to basically become a more efficient communication network.

Dan: Neurons, but neurons are composed of functional networks of like neurons that all act together. And what happens is when you start aligning neurons to start basically pulsing together, it creates a better transport or better communication between them. Does that make sense? All of this is like awesome. It’s great. 

The challenge is though, that binaurals, they’re not really effective. The challenge with them is that they are starting in your brain stem, which in your brain, if you look at it, it’s really where evolutionarily, our brains like started with a million years ago, like our reptilian parts of our brain, so it’s not really sophisticated. 

Georgie: Compared to the prefrontal cortex.

Dan: Yeah, exactly. prefrontal cortex, where all of our stuff is, exactly, right. So, the challenge with that is, sometimes entrainment doesn’t work, like, it has a hard time. The resolution, like a camera’s resolution is very minimal. So, there is different effects that people would experience where sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t. 

And then you get a lot of these scientific papers and research that show they are or they aren’t effective and it’s because it’s not the best tool. And with science, the benefit of it is like how can you create a reproducible action over and over again, across many people. And that’s like where basically this functional music and work settings was like, stopping. But it’s still in popular science. And if you look on binaural beats on YouTube, you’ll find videos that have hundreds of millions of views. 

So, where Brain FM was, is the original founder of Brain FM was basically looking at all this stuff. And he was actually creating video games that you can control with your mind. So, I don’t know if you’ve ever seen these. But basically, they were like really popular in like the 2000s, where you basically have an EEG headset on your head. An EEG is an electrical unit that basically measures the electrical activity of your brain. 

What happens is that you end up being able to see what parts of your brain are active and what aren’t. So, he was doing that, he was also a musician, and started realizing that because he was using this headphone or this mind cap, he started seeing that every time he played his guitar, he had similar patterns going on in his head. 

So, he started really getting interested in this and started realizing that, hey, instead of doing the tone, what if I change this amplitude. And the interesting thing about that was, as he was playing and discovering that he actually found that this was way more effective than binaural beats. 

And then he started creating these products around it. He hired a scientist where they were like there’s no way this works. And they did our first study that we realized that it’s true. And the way that we’re doing it and differently than binaural beats is that we’re actually entraining your prefrontal cortex directly. 

So, what happens in your brain with the brainstem and all this stuff, and I know I’m going really into the science, but you asked. 

Georgie: I love it. 

Dan: Yeah. So, what happens is because we are pre combining and creating amplitude modulations directly in our music, it actually skips your brainstem and goes right to your prefrontal cortex, where there is the greatest resolution, and the greatest amount of neurons and populations and all that. And we’re able to basically switch your state from not focused to focused in five minutes. 

And it’s the same kind of speed as when you listen to your favorite song and you want to dance to it. That’s basically the same kinds of entrainment that’s going on. And then now the game is once we get you there, how can we keep you there for as long as you want to work?

Georgie: You’re pre-mixing it for us so that you can go straight to consumption rather than having to go in the mixer before it comes through to consumption, which is a dodgy pathway sometimes.

Dan: 100%. 

Georgie: I can see how it’s now being absorbed into the right part of the brain. But how does that then enable you to concentrate? 

Dan: Yeah, good question. So, it doesn’t vibrate the brain. The vibration starts — stops at your cochleagram. What happens in your cochleagram [crosstalk]

Georgie: [inaudible 00:22:46] for everyone else. 

Dan: Yeah, it’s your inner ear. You have bass, you have mid, and you have treble receptors, which basically when your eardrum moves, it activates. Those things turn into electrical impulses. 

So, when we’re putting a certain kind of pattern in your ear, that pattern turns into an electrical pattern in your brain. And what entrainment is, is the ability for us to put a pattern in your brain and your brain to keep that pattern going if you stop the stimulus. So, what’s happening is your brain starts basically pre-empting, or thinks about what the pattern is next. 

And what happens, our brain reacts to the environment that we’re in. By creating this pattern, we’re able to basically replicate the same pattern as deep focus of someone that’s literally in an fMRI, which is reading blood flow throughout your brain or through an EEG. 

So, we’re basically creating those patterns in the music, which then basically start shifting and normalizing the pattern in your brain. And then that is the pattern that people most effectively focus at, or relax at, or sleep at.

Georgie: And it’s better than just pure silence and letting your brain do its own thing, because as you said, we’ve talked about earlier how finding silence is impossible. Because even if you could externally, internally, there’s always a lot of noise. So, it stops that internal noise at the same time as setting the right mode for focus.

Dan: Yeah. So, that and that’s only for people that have no problems focusing. So, we actually have one of our studies that was funded by the National Science Foundation was can our functional music through these amplitude modulations actually help people with ADHD. And I can share this study. 

But the result is yes, it can. Because what’s happening is that people with ADHD, or other kinds of neurodiversity, their pattern by default is different than a normalized individualized pattern. So, what happens is, that’s the reason why it’s really hard to focus at your desk in school or at work or whatever. Because if you have ADHD your brain is moving faster than other people. 

So, if I put someone with ADHD in a room that is silent, that’s not the solve to be able to help them focus better. They actually need a higher stimulation than the general population to be able to be more effective. And what we’re doing with Brain FM is not only are we matching genre and mood and these patterns, but we’re actually able to start understanding more about you and start matching the pattern that you need to be able to get to where you want to go. So, yeah. Does that make sense? 

Georgie: It does and it brings me perfectly on to the next question, which was, even though broadly, you can see the state that brains are resonating in in a period of focus. To your point exactly there you said, basically, different brains are stimulated at almost at different frequencies. Is that right, or different at amplitudes? 

And so therefore, you’ve had — Is it the case that everyone has to find exactly their right amplitude? And it will — different types of music that you create will resonate differently with different people?

Dan: Yes, that’s 90% right. There’s a lot of things that we do know and there’s some things that we don’t. But to that large part, what we found is that Brain FM, the pattern, the stimulation that we’re adding to all music, which again, we’re disguising inside of it, so it’s not boring, so we actually want to listen to it. 

So, if you listen to music really closely and if you hear it like a rhythmic pulse, [rhythmic pulse sound] Yeah, that’s the thing. And we’re disguising that bass frequencies inside of musical instruments so that it’s pleasant, and not like just over and over, or depending on what you need. So, that basically works for 80% of the population. 

And what now we’re doing is saying, okay, but we want to take you to 100%. So, tell us, do you have ADHD? Tell us, do you have neurodiversity? This can help for people that have any kind of spectrum. Because it’s basically aligning everyone to be on that same level, your personal, best focus that you can achieve, like, sometimes. How can you get that all the time? And that’s really our mission. 

And we’re really focusing on focus, no pun intended now, because there’s just such a big market and so many people need that. But we can also do the same things for insomnia. We can do the same things for helping you meditate to the deepest level that you’ve had. Because we can look at what real meditation, like what monks are doing, and basically starting to match that with your physiological response, and then making it for you. 

And then eventually, where we’re moving into is actually wearables and being able to sense you specifically and how you react to music, and then have a greater finer detail of what you need. So, yeah, our premise is like, how can we enable you to be consistent? And how can we use science and bleeding edge neuro technology to help you get there with just one push of a button without thinking about it.

Georgie: And do you think, with this music, do you think there’s a limit to concentration?

Dan: There is a limit for concentration, basically, just because of energy. If I put the song on or a music on that you really enjoy, there are limiting factors. How much did you sleep? How much can your body produce? I actually only really recommend a 90 minute focus block before taking a break. 

Some people listen to Brain FM and work eight hours continuously. That’s totally fine if you do. But it’s about finding the way that you work best.

Georgie: Taking a step back, why do you think it is so important that we’re all able to focus?

Dan: I think it’s really about working as efficiently as possible. So, I think what’s happened is that, especially with working remote and everyone trying to figure out their own schedule, for most professions, now that can work remote, it’s not about showing up and working eight hours. It’s about getting a meeting for results. 

So, I think that at the end all Brain FM is a tool, but it’s not a silver bullet. So, it’s one tool in your arsenal. You also have to figure out like, hey, if you are going to work for 90 minutes on this thing, is it the right thing to be focusing on? 

But yeah, I think there’s just a general ability to start saying, hey, if I am more productive, that means that I can work less, I can make more money, I can enjoy it more maybe. I think there are all these kinds of questions that depending on what you do, and who you are, is the reason why it’s attractive.

Georgie: Amazing. And with regards to music and the brain again coming back to that, what would you still like to know that you feel like we don’t know yet?

Dan: Oh, there’s a lot of things there. So, we have a full-time neuroscientist on our team. He’s one of the smartest people I know, he has a dual PhD from MIT and Harvard at the same time. Right? 

So, he has his — he did his dissertation, actually on the Cocktail Party Problem and the actual regions of your brain that do the sensing of your name in a crowded room. And he tells me that we know more about Pluto than we do about how our brain works. 

Sound is a very interesting medium, I would say, because of the patterns that we can create. And if you can create patterns that help you focus, what other things can you do to the brain and to the body, that allow us to be our best self, enable us to focus better. But maybe it’s to wake up faster from surgery, to recover faster, from maybe feeling less pain.

Georgie: To be more empathetic.

Dan: Maybe that. What about group flow, which we — There’s a few things that we’re interested there is like, how can you enable learning?

So, there’s this really interesting, really tangent, but if you do EGs on kids, this is actually a paper and they actually put an EEG on the teacher, you can see that the kids that have a pattern that is as similar as the teacher, they actually learn better. And you can then predict that those kids are going to be better students. 

So, what if the difference is not, oh, those kids are better at learning? What if they’re just better at thinking? And then what happens if we can help everyone sink to the same level together so that communication increases, learning increases?

Georgie: What we try and do with this podcast is we ask this question of, ultimately, what is technology’s role in terms of humans being able to thrive and being the best people that we can be. 

And with Brain FM, I think this conversation has been really interesting for me, because it’s made me think how technology can really clearly help us to understand ourselves better, and to put ourselves in states that make us better in certain situations. But it’s also made me more aware than ever of the layers that are so unknown in terms of how brains really work and how people connect to each other, and how we resonate with one another. 

And I guess it’s made me at the same time concerned that technology, not Brain FM technology necessarily, but things like this sitting on a screen, having our lives mediated all the time by the internet. Or whether actually it’s taking away a lot of what it actually really does mean to be human because we don’t fully understand how our brains work. This is the reality, it’s a double edged sword.

Dan: It’s not going to go away. Brain FM is really about how can we use technology to enable someone to be who they want to be. And if you have ADHD, or you just want to be able to focus better, then yeah, we can do that. And we can also help someone sleep better, we can help someone relax better. 

And it’s not because it’s music that sounds like you can, it’s actually verified with science, and allows you to trust that this is something that is working. And then gives you a base to say, okay, I have this tool, what are other tools I can apply to this too and make my life better? Because that’s what technology is, it’s just a tool. And I think that’s the next level of I guess where we’re at is like, how can we upgrade everyone’s tools to be what they want.

Georgie: Yeah. Amazing. You have been a fantastic guest. Thank you so much, Dan. I’ve learned so much.

Dan: Thanks for having me. This was a blast.

Georgie: Thank you for joining us on Freedom Matters. If you like what you hear, then subscribe on your favorite platform. And until next time, we wish you happy, healthy, and productive days.